tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post5750521871767112258..comments2024-01-13T21:31:23.388-05:00Comments on Reading While White: Reviewing While White: There Is a Tribe of KidsReading While Whitehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07807138877345669931noreply@blogger.comBlogger135125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-83292895450664909172016-10-04T07:48:38.128-04:002016-10-04T07:48:38.128-04:00Took one look at one illustration and can truthful...Took one look at one illustration and can truthfully say my own tribal children would be very offended. Even at a young age. Because they see things that look like stereotypical feathers-on-Indians. They get really sick of that. Perhaps because they were brought up knowing what that regalia means.Kanumommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16227136347718790397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-16244338409538244062016-07-20T10:57:23.241-04:002016-07-20T10:57:23.241-04:00Debbie, thank you for clarifying.
and again, th...Debbie, thank you for clarifying. <br /><br />and again, thank you to RWW for this forum, and to every single commenter - I am grateful that you make the time to thoughtfully and sensitively engage. LOVE it!! Librarians are the BEST!!<br /><br />Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-32775128121542338482016-07-20T07:36:04.693-04:002016-07-20T07:36:04.693-04:00Good morning,
The discussion we're having her...Good morning,<br /><br />The discussion we're having here about finding someone who is Native who can weigh in on any given book, parallels recent discussions amongst writers/editors to find someone who is an insider to a particular group who can read a manuscript and give feedback on what is in the manuscript. The term for doing that is "vetting" a manuscript or having a "beta reader." A more recent term associated with that activity is finding a "sensitivity reader." <br /><br />In that particular discussion (authors/editors) I wrote up some thoughts on that activity. In a nutshell: at research institutions there is a process research proposals go through before a research project can begin. Some of the process is specific to populations deemed vulnerable to exploitation. Children, for example, but minorities, too, because there's quite an extensive history of Native and People of Color being used--without their knowledge--as subjects in research projects. It is a grotesque history. Debby Dahl Edwardson's MY NAME IS NOT EASY includes one of those examples. I highly recommend her book. <br /><br />Part of getting someone's feedback or participation in such studies requires that they fully understand what is going on, and depending on the research question, having someone who has the knowledge/experience to provide feedback that is reliable. For more details about that, here's the post I wrote about it:<br />http://americanindiansinchildrensliterature.blogspot.com/2015/02/dear-writers-and-editors-some-cautions.html<br /><br />Debbie Reesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972409006633565859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-47680819639783364022016-07-20T05:33:50.346-04:002016-07-20T05:33:50.346-04:00Thanks, Debbie, for the clarification. I plan on...Thanks, Debbie, for the clarification. I plan on rereading all the thoughts expressed here, on your site, and on the listserv, to continue considering the many points raised. <br /><br />徐幼鳳https://www.blogger.com/profile/15663121476499984721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-43020792611649174132016-07-20T00:18:19.916-04:002016-07-20T00:18:19.916-04:00Hi all,
Somewhere in this thread, I said this, an...Hi all,<br /><br />Somewhere in this thread, I said this, and KT Horning repeated it, and I'll say it again.<br /><br /><b>I don't think the word is offensive. When used alongside illustrations like those in Smith's book, it becomes problematic because together, the word and the illustrations collapse into primitive notions of who we were, and who we are.</b><br /><br />I'll add this:<br /><br />Tribe and tribal are not "triggers" or "triggering" to me. Right now, "trigger" is used in the context of PTSD and I don't want anyone to think that I'm experiencing anything akin to what happens to those with PTSD. <br /><br />And one more time: <br /><br /><b>I don't think the word is offensive. When used alongside illustrations like those in Smith's book, it becomes problematic because together, the word and the illustrations collapse into primitive notions of who we were, and who we are.</b><br />Debbie Reesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972409006633565859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-51314762219870795892016-07-19T14:37:41.158-04:002016-07-19T14:37:41.158-04:00Jamalia Higgins said...
Debbie Reese, I never...Jamalia Higgins said...<br /><br /> Debbie Reese, I never suggested that Sam Bloom "ought not to say anything" about the Lane Smith book. I said I was leery, worried, and thought some of the contentions veered into shaky ground.<br /><br /> I apologize for not recognizing that tribe and tribal are trigger words that should no longer be used. I learn new things from this and other eye-opening blogs every day, and for that I thank you all so much for this opportunity to have spirited and respectful discussions.<br /><br />Jamalia's reply is perfect. I've pasted the whole comment because it's short - four sentences, yet she said everything necessary. She respects Debbie's pov, i.e. does not say she'd "LOVE" to hear from other experts. Allie and Nina have expressed this more eloquently and succinctly than I so I'll leave it at that.<br /><br />I was also unaware that "tribe" and "tribal" are trigger words. For Debbie to say it was enough in the context of this conversation.<br /><br />Thank you, RWW and commenters, for the opportunity to engage in "spirited and respectful discussions." (thanks to Jamalia for a GREAT description) <br /><br />Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-68709992425027119132016-07-19T11:44:16.424-04:002016-07-19T11:44:16.424-04:00Jacinda: I didn't mean for you to feel you had...Jacinda: I didn't mean for you to feel you had to apologize again! I do see where you coming from originally. Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-23168681386262285782016-07-18T17:11:33.132-04:002016-07-18T17:11:33.132-04:00Carol said : Jacinda: I agree with you on the poi...Carol said : Jacinda: I agree with you on the point that asking someone to suggest other Native American scholars seems a "logical first step." In this context, though, the mission of this forum is clear.<br /><br />From the mission statement: We resolve to listen and learn from people of color and First/Native Nations people willing to speak about those experiences. <br /><br />As I read this part of the mission statement I thought it would be nice to know who to ask. Asking Debbie was asking an expert for more experts! As I said before I apologize and will find other ways to find experts to ask!<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03097144936623234876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-46268881434389747222016-07-17T21:38:14.951-04:002016-07-17T21:38:14.951-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-57316739783601301682016-07-17T21:15:39.999-04:002016-07-17T21:15:39.999-04:00"Many of us actively working to interrupt rac..."Many of us actively working to interrupt racism continually hear complaints about the “gotcha” culture of white anti-racism. There is a stereotype that we are looking for every incident we can find so we can spring out, point our fingers, and shout, “You’re a racist!” While certainly there are white people who arrogantly set themselves apart from other whites by acting in this way, in my experience over 20 years this is not the norm. It is far more common for sincere white people to agonize over when and how to give feedback to a fellow white person, given the ubiquitousness of white fragility. White fragility works to punish the person giving feedback and essentially bully them back into silence. It also maintains white solidarity—the tacit agreement that we will protect white privilege and not hold each other accountable for our racism. When the person giving the feedback is a person of color, the charge is “playing the race card” and the consequences of white fragility are much more penalizing."<br /><br />Source: https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/white-fragility-and-the-rules-of-engagement-twlm/ <br />Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-41640426114625966592016-07-17T21:05:24.740-04:002016-07-17T21:05:24.740-04:00This is a really good article, also; relevant and ...This is a really good article, also; relevant and enlightening with practical tips and insights. <br /><br />https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/white-fragility-and-the-rules-of-engagement-twlm/ Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-60549289477714255732016-07-17T20:58:18.496-04:002016-07-17T20:58:18.496-04:00Fairrosa: not sure why this matters. Would you ela...Fairrosa: not sure why this matters. Would you elaborate? Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-68184621491465751752016-07-17T20:55:49.467-04:002016-07-17T20:55:49.467-04:00Yes, thanks to all!! I'm excited to be able t...Yes, thanks to all!! I'm excited to be able to participate in discussions such as this. Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-18500583707874058142016-07-17T20:52:36.813-04:002016-07-17T20:52:36.813-04:00Jacinda: I agree with you on the point that asking...Jacinda: I agree with you on the point that asking someone to suggest other Native American scholars seems a "logical first step." In this context, though, the mission of this forum is clear. Allie has an excellent article about this, also. "On being white: a raw, honest conversation", Fall 2015, Children and Libraries. <br /><br />I have a lot to learn and think about before I can cogently put it all together but what has helped me has been referring back to the mission and to Allie's article. The loose analogy I have formed about this situation is that it's like before posting to a listserv: it's good to check the archives first before sending a question to the whole group. Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-89335584378572141432016-07-17T20:29:24.208-04:002016-07-17T20:29:24.208-04:00@Fairrosa: my interpretation of your exhortation t...@Fairrosa: my interpretation of your exhortation to Debbie here was that you were putting the ball in her court; placing the responsibility on her shoulders to share her review and invite other Native American scholars to come "share their views directly." There's a lot to unpack in this seemingly enthusiastic invitation that ultimately comes across as insincere and an attempt to mask what seems to be a microagression. I don't think you're intentionally racist. I'm not intentionally racist, either, and I'm here to learn the ways in which I am and to correct these tendencies as best I can. As I read your comments, I get a sense of a well educated and thoughtful person but who is inclined to defend the status quo.<br /><br />My questions and observations:<br />(1) why is it up to Debbie to ask other Native American scholars? Could you not extend this invitation? <br />(2) your language is courteous but your intention seems to be to shut Debbie down - I'm hearing "don't call us, we'll call you as soon as we hear that others feel the same." I know you didn't say this directly; that's how I interpret your comments (an outsider to the "decades long, unpleasant(ness)..." Debbie mentions later in this thread). <br />(3) the way you couch all of this seems so nice but it seems controlling, too - like, how can Debbie argue with one who would "LOVE" to hear from other Native American scholars? <br /><br />The way you're shutting her down is subtle and couched in "niceness" but it is what it is - shutting her down. <br /><br />I do realize you're originally from Taiwan and of Chinese heritage. In the context of this particular discussion, I don't feel that this is relevant. Debbie is the one speaking her pov and her truth and it seems as if you're spending so much time defending instead of listening. <br /><br />As I close, I respect your voice and experience and your care in attempting to be gracious and diplomatic. I appreciate you, Fairrosa, and everyone in this forum for making time to discuss these matters with respect and gravity. I'm very happy to have found this forum. Debbie's posts on the Texas Library Connection listserv have inspired me and I'm excited to be in the company of other librarians who care about the effects of "reading while white." <br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Carol<br /><br /><br />Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-82807043150119839552016-07-17T17:36:10.210-04:002016-07-17T17:36:10.210-04:00Hoping it's not too late to add a few more tho...Hoping it's not too late to add a few more thoughts...<br />I’m trying to characterize what seems central to the insights and dialogue unfolding here over 100+ comments. As Sarah H. says, we are in this space because we care about how a book communicates and how we name the ways different meanings matter. The word ‘tribe’ and how it communicates has been at the heart of much of this dialogue; so I’ve been thinking about how to describe ways of reading images and stories written by non-Native authors that depend on the word ‘tribe.’ <br /><br />Maybe this is obvious to many people here, but I see the differences in reading in terms of the imaginative scope a reviewer might encourage and promote; or conversely, question and reject. Debbie Reese, other writers and the RWW bloggers strive to bring these two ways of reading together.<br /><br />The first way of reading hinges on a claim to or protection of the widest possible landscape of images and relationships available to authors/illustrators. Arguments that protect imaginative possibilities are important for the development of literary arts, but they include a blindspot that misses the ways imagined possibilities serve some interests and not others—some children’s futures and not others. <br /><br />In this case, when 'tribe' is allowed to be both playful and ahistorical, it is possible to see images of children in carefree poses, while remaining blind to 'leaf head bands’. A ‘universal imagination’ reading also sees the word ‘tribe’ transformed only once – from ‘tribe of kids/as goats’ to ‘tribe of kids/as universal children.’ <br /><br />A second reading hinges on accountability to histories of representation. While acknowledging imaginative possibilities, this second reading also notices how a word means in the world, beyond the book. Such a reading recognizes a second transformation in the word ‘tribe’ - from ‘tribe of kids’ to ‘tribal children playing Indian.’ Once this transformation is recognized, readers have to ask how it will be possible to ‘place’ this book in classrooms, in bookstores, in libraries, in the pantheon if literary arts. <br /><br />In fairrosa’s blog the move into the world with the book features an imagined teacher and group of children who are invited, through guided questioning, to see themselves as playmates in a melting pot world of activity and freedom. The universality of the situation described in the post does not, presumably, include a teacher or children of First Nation heritage, who would have altogether different, deeply personal and cultural meanings associated with the word tribe. (For one thing, a ‘tribe’ would not be infantilized). These and other children and their teachers might appreciate and relate to depictions of joy and freedom in a play world; but they should not have to do so at the expense of their own or others’ dignity.<br /><br />Two ways of reading have to be in tension and in conversation: one conceives imagination as limitless and transporting; the other sees imagination as potentially exploitative and dehumanizing. We have to read for both, right? That second transformation matters. Pat Enciso @patriciae1<br />Pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14438109854751205925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-66458400510106185852016-07-17T15:41:08.064-04:002016-07-17T15:41:08.064-04:00Jacinda, this is where I feel you have placed the ...Jacinda, this is where I feel you have placed the burden on Debbie to apologize. Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-19873259891944160852016-07-17T15:10:05.345-04:002016-07-17T15:10:05.345-04:00Jacinda: i think I understand your hurt; I wouldn&...Jacinda: i think I understand your hurt; I wouldn't want to be compared to Trump, either. However, again referring back to the mission statement and the FAQ's, etc, I think it helps to remember that we are participating in this community with the understanding that we will probably feel uncomfortable at some point as we confront our assumptions and reflexes. I think Debbie felt a gut punch first and making the Trump comparison was a way of waking up whoever had the need to. Again, new to this discourse which feels like kind of like whack-a-mole, but it seems so easy for this kind of conversation to start with one issue and to promptly zigzag into another direction. Boiling it all down: I think refocusing on the mission statement and other background info on this blog about its purpose would help us all. I'm assuming we're all here because we want to do everything we can to sensitize ourselves. I'd like to think I have it all under control myself, but I'm afraid it's very likely I, too, will have an uncomfortable moment at some point - but that's part of the journey we're on, right? Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-45337052592775101382016-07-17T14:48:08.300-04:002016-07-17T14:48:08.300-04:00With apologies for the typos above. The link for t...With apologies for the typos above. The link for the PW review is here: http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-62672-056-5 And the kids are leaf-clad, of course. Though lead-clad brings interesting visuals...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12859067813578509009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-88024030606270944752016-07-17T14:46:21.475-04:002016-07-17T14:46:21.475-04:00Jacinda, I think your intentions were innocent whe...Jacinda, I think your intentions were innocent when you first asked, but you immediately veered into injury and fragility. I'm new to this blog and this type of discourse but I think that this blog's mission statement is a reminder of the mindset we value which, in a nutshell, is to listen and learn. The last paragraph of the mission statement is what I'm looking at, especially the two middle sentences. I think your reply to Debbie put some burden on her; maybe it's just my impression (and writing puts a greater burden on the writer to express themselves), but I interpret your comments to have the purpose to induce some guilt in Debbie. Rereading the mission statement would help reset your mindset.<br /> http://readingwhilewhite.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html?m=1 statement, Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-1972216454864768762016-07-17T14:44:46.891-04:002016-07-17T14:44:46.891-04:00Thanks, Veronica, and I wholeheartedly agree.
I j...Thanks, Veronica, and I wholeheartedly agree.<br /><br />I just wanted to add one other observation, since there seems to be a characterization of this discussion as splitting into a dichotomy of readings: some people read the book one way; others read it another way. I did a quick google search for references to Peter Pan in professional reviews of the book. These positive reviews popped up first. They are reviews which could be said to fall on the side of the reading divide that does not see allusions to playing Indian in the book. Here are quotes from those two reviews: (From the starred review in Publisher's Weekly http://www.shelf-awareness.com/readers-issue.html?issue=503#m8789 ) "...it stars a solitary human child, a cross between Peter Pan and Mowgli." (From the positive review in Shelf Awareness http://www.shelf-awareness.com/readers-issue.html?issue=503#m8789 ) "...this time a tree of lead-clad human ones, much like Peter Pan's lost boys, except with girls, too."<br /><br />I would argue that the difference between those positive, even starred reviews, and ones like Sam's or Minh Lê's is not in whether people pick up on the undertones of colonialism. Rather, it's in whether the reviewers name those undertones as such. The two reviewers quoted above had positive reactions to associations with Peter Pan (or with Mowgli). Peter Pan and his Lost Boys also represent an origin text for destructive narratives about Native people. (And The Jungle Book is an origin text for destructive narratives of colonialism as well.) I don't think the dichotomy is in whether people pick up on the associations with stereotypes of Native People and "wildness" that appear *throughout* children's literature; I think the difference is in how readers consciously interpret and understand those references. This is a book about the multiple layers of meaning words can carry: the meanings the book itself carries do not sit on one or the other side of a reading divide. Such meanings are part of what the book communicates, and however one reads them, they matter.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12859067813578509009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-34579810050517156002016-07-17T14:12:08.355-04:002016-07-17T14:12:08.355-04:00http://readingwhilewhite.blogspot.com/p/blog-page....http://readingwhilewhite.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html?m=1<br />Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-37082079523734253472016-07-17T14:10:20.806-04:002016-07-17T14:10:20.806-04:00I'm having a hard time keeping up with this th...I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread for various reasons, but something seems to have slid by that really bothers me. Is it somehow supposed to be an indictment of Debbie that she was paid as a consultant? The idea that women--particularly Native women and women of color--should be providing labor for free is absurd. Debbie has put a considerable amount of time and effort developing her expertise and knowledge. Her labor has value. Why shouldn't she put it to use in helping to improve people's work? Why shouldn't she be compensated for it? What exactly is the implication here?<br /><br />When I publish short stories, I get paid. In fact, I won't publish them unless I get paid, because writing them is <i>hard</i>. It takes time and effort and research and thought. But nobody says my stories are some how worth <i>less</i> than the work of people who write for free. And when I take the knowledge and effort and technique I have gathered in writing those stories and I apply it in other forums--like comments sections, for instance--and don't get paid, nobody suggests that the fact that I have gotten paid in other contexts somehow taints my thoughts. <br /><br />I read this as a particularly insidious way to attempt to undermine Debbie's integrity and I really don't understand what the point is supposed to be.<br /><br />--VeronicaUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18255579796886276754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-71342887940213772532016-07-17T14:09:37.408-04:002016-07-17T14:09:37.408-04:00this is from the mission statement for this blog: ...this is from the mission statement for this blog: "We resolve to examine our own White racial experiences without expecting people of color and First/Native Nations people to educate us." Carol Valdezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608731315150949262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9160636034192691079.post-68928083079605364412016-07-17T11:57:45.097-04:002016-07-17T11:57:45.097-04:00I have written a blog post about the double spread...I have written a blog post about the double spread we've been going discussing here, entitled: <a href="https://fairrosa.com/2016/07/17/a-tribe-of-kind-souls/" rel="nofollow">A Tribe of Kind Souls: a closer look at a double spread in Lane Smith’s There Is a TRIBE of KIDS</a><br /><br />Thanks to Debbie and Allie (and others), I will make sure that I do not demand Debbie for references to other Native American scholars and their work on children's books. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com